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On Clean Energy, China Skirts Rules

nytimes.com -- Until very recently, Hunan Province was known mainly for lip-searing spicy food, smoggy cities and destitute pig farmers...

Now, Changsha and two adjacent cities are emerging as a center of clean energy manufacturing. They are churning out solar panels for the American and European markets, developing new equipment to manufacture the panels and branching into turbines that generate electricity from wind.

By contrast, clean energy companies in the United States and Europe are struggling. Some have started cutting jobs and moving operations to China in ventures with local partners.

..China’s clean energy success lies in aggressive government policies that help this crucial export industry.. These measures risk breaking international rules to which China and almost all other nation

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Submitted Sep 10, 2010 By: teafortwo

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honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:15,259 Points:1,141,225 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Sep 12, 2010 4:24:54 AM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse polelane: the if you refer to the first sentence, it's perfectly correct. The modifier "destitute" refers to the people whose job description is "pig farmers" and does not apply to the animals used to modify the word "farmer."
POLELANE Champion Author Ohio Posts:7,148 Points:828,370 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Sep 11, 2010 7:30:47 PM Ignore POLELANE Report Abuse Shame on you calling those pigs (or their farmers) destitute. Either there is another misplaced modifier; or those Hunan farmers raise destitute pigs.
urban_dweller Champion Author Orlando Posts:1,659 Points:65,420 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Sep 11, 2010 7:00:25 PM Ignore urban_dweller Report Abuse Honda, that's not true. Google it yourself or use this link and look at table 4 : link Here's China's exports by year [in billions $ ] 2000 249 2001 266 2002 326 2003 438 2004 593 2005 762 2006 969 2007 1220 2008 1431 Remember there's a time lag in implementing trade agreements and actual shipment of goods. Get the picture now?
honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:15,259 Points:1,141,225 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Sep 11, 2010 1:30:22 PM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse urbandweller - China's economy took off a lot sooner than the Clinton administration.
urban_dweller Champion Author Orlando Posts:1,659 Points:65,420 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Sep 11, 2010 12:40:17 AM Ignore urban_dweller Report Abuse MartinMan posts [and reposts] : Do mean those same "good CONSERVATIVE, Americans" that helped push American corporations to China, via the "Contract with America"? Oh wait. That wasn't the "progressive liberal "ruling class" idiots" that wrote that legislation, designed to help "corporate America become more competitive with foreign corporations..." That liberal BS won't fly, no matter how often you repeat it, MartinMan. From the OP by the New York Times: "But this kind of help violates World Trade Organization rules banning virtually all subsidies to exporters, and could be successfully challenged at the agency’s tribunals in Geneva, said Charlene Barshefsky, who was the United States trade representative during the second Clinton administration and negotiated the terms of China’s entry to the organization in 2001." It was Pres. Clinton and his administration [along with Europe] that approved China's entry into the WTO, enabling their economy to take off. Blame the Clinton administration and the labor unions for America's failure to compete. [Edited by: urban_dweller at 9/11/2010 3:42:03 AM EST]
hblee Champion Author Ontario Posts:1,866 Points:634,535 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 1:45:06 PM Ignore hblee Report Abuse Good luck with getting China to bend.
MAC48 All-Star Author Dallas Posts:728 Points:499,925 Joined:Dec 2006	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 12:41:05 PM Ignore MAC48 Report Abuse It would take a united European & US effort to induce the Chinese to comply with the WTO rules. We have two choices. We can continue to ignore China's non-compliance with the WTO rules or we can file a protest with the WTO.
TFzoom All-Star Author Chicago Posts:782 Points:652,230 Joined:Jun 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 12:10:49 PM Ignore TFzoom Report Abuse Do we as consumers benefit from China's government policies that reduce the cost to us? Should we as a government mirror the Chinese to make our products competitive? Would the benefit of creating jobs outweigh the cost of U.S. govt (taxpayer) subsidies if we decided to "compete"?
my3sons Champion Author New York Posts:4,455 Points:1,506,535 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 11:04:55 AM Ignore my3sons Report Abuse CHina cares about no one, not even the people who live there
kbierley Champion Author Dayton Posts:9,931 Points:1,270,610 Joined:Nov 2003	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 9:54:07 AM Ignore kbierley Report Abuse HELLO? Where has the NY Times been? They just found this out?
milespergallon Champion Author Illinois Posts:7,493 Points:1,479,290 Joined:Feb 2007	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 9:49:27 AM Ignore milespergallon Report Abuse I do not buy anything made in china! I have to wonder if this country, and the world, for that matter is going to wake up before it is realized that china is destroying free market and manufacturing? We should be focused on build it here buy it here. Period!
BEngr Champion Author Illinois Posts:4,263 Points:1,115,130 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:20:19 AM Ignore BEngr Report Abuse This reminds me that there are a lot of products made in China that we could be making here in the United States. I wonder why our government hasn't been doing much for our manufactures that would create more jobs and reduce the unemployment.
packards42 Champion Author Washington Posts:4,234 Points:716,195 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:19:56 AM Ignore packards42 Report Abuse But China has virtually ignored the requirement since joining the W.T.O. Contending that it is still a developing country struggling to understand its commitments, China has filed just one list of subsidies, which were in place between 2001 and 2004. And that one list covered only central government policies while omitting local or provincial subsidies. No surprise there, their loaning money to the USA, so how can we challenge their questionably business practices. The hard part is we still exporting Solar energy jobs to China. That says a lot for the effectiveness of our government incentives
egd Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:6,048 Points:1,722,515 Joined:Mar 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:18:18 AM Ignore egd Report Abuse hmm, Chinese Capitalism is run by the government do we need tariffs to keep the market fair [Edited by: egd at 9/10/2010 11:19:40 AM EST]
packards42 Champion Author Washington Posts:4,234 Points:716,195 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:12:39 AM Ignore packards42 Report Abuse Chinese will have this market corners before we even get a foot on the ground. and all our government tax credit will go oversea's do we really thin we get a tax credit. the money is in and out, and goes to the oversea manufacturer. We should disallow tax credit for the supply of non US manufactured products. The we the entire green industry crumble.
mynt Champion Author Ottawa Posts:2,940 Points:606,205 Joined:May 2010	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:12:21 AM Ignore mynt Report Abuse What else is new ... China plays by their own rules for the most part.
ILVET Champion Author Illinois Posts:12,489 Points:2,472,095 Joined:Jan 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:08:16 AM Ignore ILVET Report Abuse No big surprise here
ramshot412 Champion Author Riverside Posts:17,887 Points:2,043,120 Joined:Apr 2004	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:06:30 AM Ignore ramshot412 Report Abuse "Do mean those same "good CONSERVATIVE, Americans" that helped push American corporations to China, via the "Contract with America"?" No, he's talking about Bushitler and his two wars that will end up costing us trillions of dollars.
realtorguzzler Champion Author Florida Posts:1,488 Points:259,210 Joined:Jun 2010	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:05:11 AM Ignore realtorguzzler Report Abuse Why is it that it is always one-sided? As soon as we do the same thing they do to us there is retaliation. Doesn't make sense.
rippertoo Champion Author Tacoma Posts:3,406 Points:678,510 Joined:Jan 2010	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:04:15 AM Ignore rippertoo Report Abuse Since when has anyone with more than 1/2 a brain cell trusted China to do things properly?
sjambok Champion Author Nashville Posts:7,963 Points:1,647,500 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:04:13 AM Ignore sjambok Report Abuse gee, what a surprise
bluebird1 Champion Author Toronto Posts:13,418 Points:2,653,005 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:03:30 AM Ignore bluebird1 Report Abuse When has China ever followed the rules...skirting is actually an improvement as it implies they're close to the rules rather than blatantly going against them.
SeerLV Champion Author Las Vegas Posts:3,930 Points:807,825 Joined:Jun 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 8:00:31 AM Ignore SeerLV Report Abuse We need to be aggressive too or we will be left farther behind.
IzOfSilver Champion Author Tennessee Posts:8,394 Points:2,085,470 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:53:47 AM Ignore IzOfSilver Report Abuse Exactly why we cannot trust the Chinese for anything, including cap and trade issues....
copperhead8 Champion Author Boston Posts:14,843 Points:2,355,225 Joined:Dec 2004	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:52:31 AM Ignore copperhead8 Report Abuse I agree with MertieMan.
Dale Jr. Champion Author Illinois Posts:13,868 Points:2,770,050 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:48:35 AM Ignore Dale Jr. Report Abuse Not surprised.
turbodog Champion Author Mississippi Posts:4,387 Points:895,440 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:45:12 AM Ignore turbodog Report Abuse and how is their clean energy products contributing?
ramammoth Champion Author Modesto Posts:1,389 Points:278,565 Joined:Mar 2007	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:45:02 AM Ignore ramammoth Report Abuse Seems that everything China does always has holes in it and caveats.
MertieMan Champion Author Lexington Posts:12,404 Points:2,427,635 Joined:May 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:38:43 AM Ignore MertieMan Report Abuse China will lead the world in everything as long as the rest of the world lets them get by with it, then sits on their honches and does nothing but spout rhetoric and hot air.
arnerator Champion Author Seattle Posts:5,816 Points:1,154,635 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:38:32 AM Ignore arnerator Report Abuse Gee....I'm so surprised (NOT).
VTROCK Champion Author Detroit Posts:2,582 Points:644,455 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:36:53 AM Ignore VTROCK Report Abuse I'm sure China's priorities are human rights and clean energy. These are things that are only going to add cost to their manufacturing operations which would reduce their advantage.
jimbo1867 Champion Author Arizona Posts:3,011 Points:1,587,550 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:34:36 AM Ignore jimbo1867 Report Abuse hmmmmmm
tobasco Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:6,748 Points:1,754,720 Joined:Mar 2004	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:33:06 AM Ignore tobasco Report Abuse And this is surprising?
tomok Champion Author Portland Posts:24,632 Points:1,877,535 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:33:03 AM Ignore tomok Report Abuse China has NO rules, its business as usual. Don’t buy Chinese products and watch how fast they change their tune.
Sam195 Champion Author San Bernardino Posts:5,750 Points:1,113,925 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:32:47 AM Ignore Sam195 Report Abuse How can we compete with cheap China labor.
toadNY Champion Author Albany Posts:4,558 Points:1,046,550 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:30:00 AM Ignore toadNY Report Abuse Well if obama gets the votes for cap & trade, then see how many jobs go to China! An just how many jobs will be cut in 2014 with national health care?
TheSicilian Champion Author Jacksonville Posts:3,021 Points:1,002,225 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:27:09 AM Ignore TheSicilian Report Abuse China dosen't follow the rules and works cheap that's why they get the business
EXTREMESNOW Champion Author Medford Posts:7,047 Points:1,452,490 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:25:15 AM Ignore EXTREMESNOW Report Abuse I'm all too tired of hearing about how China is getting more and more contracts and jobs and oil for that matter. When are we going to wise up and start taking care of ourselves here in the US?
orcar Champion Author Boise Posts:1,393 Points:420,860 Joined:Jun 2010	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:25:12 AM Ignore orcar Report Abuse Building clean energy sources is not necessarily clean. There are plastics, adhesives, chemicals, etc...used in the manufacture of solar panels. The reason China is getting the business if because their wages are so low and the restrictions on business are so loose. The waste materials are put into the rivers, air and buried or burned.
FPLREP Champion Author Virginia Posts:5,735 Points:1,984,150 Joined:Oct 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:25:10 AM Ignore FPLREP Report Abuse What China not playing by the environmental rules? I'm shocked. They had to shut down businesses and traffic to make it safe to breathe for the olympics remember?! MacDonalds "Shrek glasses".?
sleepyt Champion Author Chicago Posts:2,293 Points:702,925 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:25:07 AM Ignore sleepyt Report Abuse It is just like when we were the largest economic power - we could skirt the rules with impunity. Now we cannot, and the Chinese can get away with it. And agreed, let's remember exactly which party it was (the pro-business, anti-labor one) that allowed the trade deficit run as large as it has, and spent so much money on wars of adventure and tax breaks that the surplus has turned into a record deficit. And allowed free export of American jobs across borders. And I'm not talking about NAFTA, either!
Fitwit Champion Author Stockton Posts:4,360 Points:942,500 Joined:May 2009	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:22:46 AM Ignore Fitwit Report Abuse Keep it clean.
cnet1 Champion Author Arizona Posts:1,955 Points:515,150 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:22:15 AM Ignore cnet1 Report Abuse China has their own rules.
Martinman Champion Author Mississippi Posts:11,756 Points:1,658,215 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:19:56 AM Ignore Martinman Report Abuse DLgougewatcher from north dakota posted... "When the chicoms decide to collect the US debt, they'll OWN us! They know TO THE PENNY how much we owe them. As long as we owe those commies money, no president (especially the jerk we have in now) will rattle his/her saber and tell them to "play by the rules." It's incredible how we got into this position. It's time to stop the insanity train once and for all! Throw EVERY progressive liberal "ruling class" idiot out of DC (regardless of party) and preplace them with good CONSERVATIVE, MAIN STREAM Americans!! NOT elitists!" . Do mean those same "good CONSERVATIVE, Americans" that helped push American corporations to China, via the "Contract with America"? Oh wait. That wasn't the "progressive liberal "ruling class" idiots" that wrote that legislation, designed to help "corporate America become more competitive with foreign corporations..."
shenna Champion Author Ontario Posts:2,843 Points:718,595 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:17:52 AM Ignore shenna Report Abuse leave it to china
StickySam Champion Author Virginia Posts:3,124 Points:857,920 Joined:Nov 2007	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:17:45 AM Ignore StickySam Report Abuse Communist China will cheat, lie, bribe to get what they want. And Americans will keep on buying their products because they are cheap, you get what you deserve!
GatorGuy Champion Author Columbia Posts:1,131 Points:819,380 Joined:Jan 2009	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:17:40 AM Ignore GatorGuy Report Abuse They ship us their cheap goods, and we ship them all our money....or I.O.U.s rather.
Jamer Champion Author Orange County Posts:6,387 Points:1,176,310 Joined:Jul 2002	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:16:57 AM Ignore Jamer Report Abuse I hope no ones surprised by China's actions.
bicycler Champion Author Ontario Posts:12,685 Points:2,206,320 Joined:May 2005	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:16:13 AM Ignore bicycler Report Abuse do not expect China to follow the rules! But expect them to demand others to follow those same rules!
ironbox_sara Champion Author Albany Posts:7,240 Points:1,781,015 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 7:15:10 AM Ignore ironbox_sara Report Abuse Really.